Shattering the Glass Ceiling: Beverly’s Rise as a Lawyer

Jen Hardy [00:00:10]:

I have to say that it really bothers me when somebody says they can’t do something because of the way they were brought up or the situation that they were in or because their families always been a certain way. And it takes listening to somebody like my guest today, Beverly Williams, to make you realize it is absolutely true that if you make a decision that you’re gonna be successful, you wanna do something and you do what you need to do, you can get there. Here she is. Absolutely inspiring Beverly Williams. Beverly Thank you so much for joining me on the podcast today. Oh my goodness.

Beverly Williams [00:00:50]:

Jen, I have been looking forward to this such a long time. Unfortunately, our technical glitches compromise our great collaboration but we move forward because that’s what we do.

Jen Hardy [00:01:06]:

Exactly. Yeah. So Beverly and I have this interview. across an assortment of recording places about a month ago. And for some reason, yeah, it just didn’t work. So here we are again. to have her tell her amazing story because I find it very inspirational. Beverly just finds it a part of her life, and that’s just what happened. So You know what? And I think that’s that’s part of what makes it great, though. I think if you were shouting from Brookdale, so great you are. Yeah. We probably wouldn’t be here, I guess. But but, yeah, I I think your story is it it inspires me. It it truly does. I think, you know, we we came from a similar situation, I think. You know? Both our dads left school at an early age and worked and wanted more for their kids. Right? That’s where it started. So, yeah, how tell me a little bit about your journey.

Beverly Williams [00:01:54]:

Well, as you said, my father left school when he was I don’t think he reached the 8th grade. And so for him, education became an obsession. and he wanted that for his children. And I was the only one of his 3 children that embraced education. I like to read. I’d like to learn. So it was a no brainer for me. It was it it came relatively easy easily. Yeah. I I studied, but I also had fun. I you know, my friends and I say, fun doesn’t owe us anything. We’ve had fun, and we’ve enjoyed that. But we’ve also We’re achievers. That’s really what we do. You know, we’re focused. So I went to undergraduate school and got a mass a a bachelor’s in political science, then I got a fellow Ford Fellowship to attend the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill, where I got a master’s in public administration. And then I went to work. I went back to New Jersey where I’m from and worked And then I decided I wanted to go to law school. And I always wanted to go to law school, but Rutgers University began an evening program, which made it easy for me to do, and that’s what I did. And people are always amazed when I said, yeah. I work the full time job, and I I went to law school at night. There was no other way I could have done it. I you know, no one was saying Beverly, you go to school more school during the day and will pay for it, and you just focus on law school. That wasn’t my circumstance. My family, as you can imagine, didn’t have money. Nobody could help me, so I had to do it for myself, and I enjoyed it. So when you enjoy something, it doesn’t seem to be as arduous a task. You know what I mean? I and I didn’t have children. I wasn’t married, so I could work and then go to school and then come home from school and go to bed. and get up to go to work the next day. So it was I used to say, I watched Dallas that television show every Friday night. And there were classmates of mine that would go home on Thursday night and hunker down and study from Thursday until Monday. And I used to say to my some of my friends in law school, Well, there are people that were watching that didn’t watch Dallas that didn’t do any better than I did in law school. And I, you know, I would take breaks every once in a while because I had to clear my mind because I don’t mean to imply that it was easy, but it was doable and I enjoyed it. And then somebody came to me in my last year, and told me that they wanted me to apply for a loss a law clerk position, a prestigious law clerk position, And if attorney to know that if you can get the right clerkship, that can really change how you move forward as an attorney, but they don’t pay much. And I had bought a house the last my last year in law school. I don’t know. timing wasn’t right, but it was one of my best decisions, so it turned out. And it was a 2 family house. So I had income toward the mortgage, which was helpful because I was making peanuts as a law clerk. And It really did help me as an attorney move in circles that I wouldn’t have otherwise moved in. And I was afforded opportunities that I would not have been afforded. And I landed a job that I’m reasonably sure would not have turned out as well. Because the job that I was offered while I was still in law school before I found out that I got the clarkship. I’m it was in with a new a prestigious New York firm in the area that I wanted to specialize in. So when I got the clerkship, I was like, oh, I can’t take this clerkship. I can’t afford it. It’s just there’s no money. And when I talked to the partner that hired me, he said, oh, no. We want you to take the clerkship. We’ll hold your job for a year. we want our our attorneys to be developed. I’m like, developed. I I worked for because the clerkship was only 4 year and then you had to leave. And then they brought in a new slate of clerks. I’m like, I did this for a year. I don’t know how I did it, but I paid the mortgage. I ate, you know, I got back and forth to work. I don’t know how I did it, but I did it. I don’t I can’t do this. I can’t do this. And but I did it for a year, and then I went to work for a large law firm a national law firm that had a New Jersey office, and then subsequently, I moved into its New York office. And work for 1 of the preeminent employment attorneys in the country at the time.

Jen Hardy [00:07:40]:

That’s amazing. Let’s see. I just think that’s such an amazing story. I really you know, it just it just goes to show that if you want something, Right? If you want something, you can do it. You just have to but it’s but it’s not easy. You’re not saying it was easy.

Beverly Williams [00:07:55]:

I’m not saying it was easy. It was doable, and there were other people doing it. I mean, my my law school colleagues who I’m still friendly with. In fact, we had dinner a couple weeks ago, maybe last month. you do what you have to do, and one of them didn’t study for squat. You know? He and he did very well You know, you have to know what you can do and what you can’t do. You have to manage your circumstance and be realistic about your abilities and what you need to do to make sure that you prevail and that you succeed. And everybody’s not willing to do that.

Jen Hardy [00:08:39]:

Yeah. That’s true. Well and I’m sure you gave up some things while you were doing that too. You know, you didn’t get to do all the things and pay for all the things that you wanted because you’re willing take a year and really hunker down, right, to get that done?

Beverly Williams [00:08:52]:

I’ve never denied myself much. But during that year, I must not have wanted anything. You know, I bought the house, and I was able somehow and I can’t I’ve never been a spendthrift to outward appearances. It may look like I’m cavalier about money, and I, you know, I bought because it looks like I buy whatever I want. And I I pretty much do that, but I don’t want a whole lot. You know? And that’s not really true. When I buy stuff, I spend money, but I don’t spend money like some of my friends spend money. It’s just Oh, it’s just I forgot. This goes this this this screen the video goes off if I don’t hit the button. Oh. No. I don’t know how I did it. I I don’t know I don’t know how I paid for the house I’m in now while I wasn’t one working. I I did, though, because I must have had I mean, I wasn’t working full time. I had my my corporate job because I wanted to pursue writing the book and and talking to people about how they could be more successful in their careers and employment because people were acting you know, this was around 2008, 2009, the great recession. people were acting like nothing had changed. Like, they could still go out and find the job they wanted with little or no effort, and that just wasn’t the case any longer. And that distressed me, especially when I saw men who had always taking care of their families. They’ve always been able to take care of their families. They lost their jobs, and they could no longer provide. and that made me think of my father. My father at one point worked 3 jobs so he could take care of his his family. And I said to myself, I can help. I can I can help them by telling them how they should handle what’s going on. I’ve been in the room, as they say in Hamilton, where it happens. where decisions are made, and people were not realistic about how to move forward. And that was distressing to me because I did see my father there’s no telling what my father would have done if he found himself in a position where he couldn’t take care of his family. So whether it was hubris or just ignorance. I just it I didn’t know what I didn’t know. I just felt I know this. I know this is not working. And, you know, they would get up every morning and go put on their three piece suits and go out and look for work, but they were doing it in the traditional way. As of and they wouldn’t tell people. They didn’t tell their friends. They didn’t tell their loved ones that they lost their jobs because they were embarrassed. and we now know that networking is the best way to get another job, to get to meet people who can help you move forward. Just by asking, people are willing to to help.

Jen Hardy [00:12:19]:

Yeah. And I feel like right now, I know people are some people are having a hard time. You know, it’s interesting. It seems like there’s a lot of some kind of jobs, but not a lot of professional job. I don’t know. People are having a hard time again. What is a good way if someone is finding themselves out of work or or it is very unhappy at their job? What is a good way for them to find a good job.

Beverly Williams [00:12:41]:

First of all, you have to be and I say qualified, and I use that word advisedly, you have to be realistic about your skill set and about your qualifications of what you bring to the table. Let’s say let me give you an example because this sits close to home. One of my dear ones, I won’t even identify the relationship because he if he hears this, he’ll be embarrassed. I said to him, I said, you know when my business really takes off, you know, you can come and work for me. He says, yes. I can be a vice president. And I said, really? I said, what in your in your work history, in your experience, your work experience qualifies you to be the vice president of anything. And he he says, well, I said, well, you know, I’m waiting for you to tell me. He had no college education, He did not have any focus about what he wanted to do, but he liked the sound of being a vice president. Having shared that example, you have to be realistic about what you bring to the table. What you’re qualified to do. And I’m not saying for one second that the most qualified person will always get the job. But I can tell you this. if you’re not qualified, you don’t wanna get that job because you might fail. And then your brand, your personal brand can be severely compromised. But if you network if you have certain qualifications and you’re realistic about the jobs you you pursue, talk to people, everyone you know, everyone you meet. If you’re able to volunteer, donate, be of service to someone less fortunate in a nonprofit. schools need volunteers, all of that widen your net so that you can tell people oh, I’m looking for work. This is what I’m looking for. I’m really good at this. You practice how you would cuts you would say, to them. I’m looking for work, and this is what I’m good at. And the reason I know this works is because someone did that to me. I was at a college, a university event for the business school, And this young man didn’t know me, walked up to me, shook my hand from handshake, always important, smiled, always important, told me what he you know, where he had what he had majored in in the business school, what he was looking for. I was like, he’s read my book. I mean, it’s seriously it was it was it was really gratifying because it was, like, chapter and verse, and he hadn’t read my book, but he did the right thing. And I wanted to help him. And as it turned out, I didn’t I didn’t help him because he went on vacation, but he got a job without any assistance for me from one of my former employer employers, and I wasn’t surprised. But you have to be ready. You have to be dressed appropriately, and that’s appropriate for the employer whose job you’re seeking. You know? If you’re working for a rock band. If you wanna go work for a rock band, you’re not going in a three piece soup. But if you wanna work for a Fortune 500 company, I wouldn’t suggest that you start out with purple hair and flip flops. Yeah. Just wouldn’t that. You can do it if that’s who you are, and you’re not willing to change. That’s the other thing to that own self be true. The way you start out is the way you wanna finish. You don’t wanna go in in a three piece suit, and then after you get the job, start wearing flip flops and dye your hair purple. That’s gonna be a problem for you whether you realize it or not. And, yes, you can say Well, I have a right to wear flip flops, and I have a right to have purple hair. If I want purple hair, and they have laws now on the books in many states, they call clown acts. You can’t discriminate against people because of their hair. It could be ethnic. It could be religious. You cannot or should not because whether you know it or not, people in spite of laws, guess what? People still discriminate. Yeah. Go figure.

Jen Hardy [00:17:56]:

Yeah. They do. It’s

Beverly Williams [00:17:58]:

it’s a thing. Yeah. It’s a it’s a thing. It’s a real thing. And as women and especially women of a certain age, we know better than many. how it happens and why it happens and that it happens more than it should.

Jen Hardy [00:18:13]:

Yeah. Which you know, and I and I say this all the time. I just don’t understand. I don’t understand any kind of discriminate. I just don’t. We’re all people. Like, how is it a thing? I don’t even know. Yeah. I I feel like the older I get, the more invisible I get to people outside. which is — Why do you feel that was the same thing? I don’t know. because people don’t people don’t seem to notice me as I don’t know. I don’t know. And part of that is probably me, I guess.

Beverly Williams [00:18:41]:

probably. Because there’s nothing that I’m looking at you. There’s nothing that would say, oh, I should ignore her or pay no attention to her. How tall are you? 58.

Jen Hardy [00:18:53]:

Yeah. See, you’re tall. I’m tall. I’m 5, 9, or 10. And, you know, I think I I At one point, I grown an inch. And I said, but when you get older, aren’t you supposed to shrink? Oh my gosh. That happened to me. I went to the doctor, and they said, you’re 59. I said, no. This is, like, last year. I was 54. I’ve not grown yeah. You’ve grown an itch. I went to another doctor. They said, yeah. You’re 59. I don’t know. How does that happen? Yeah. They send you a shrink. there’s no way I should have grown. Right. One of my dearly departed friends, he was a my my one of my my god child’s grandfather.

Beverly Williams [00:19:26]:

He used to call me the peacock. Look at her. She’s getting look at her getting out of the car. She walks like a peacock. I’ve always had good posture. So that may be part of it. And plus, if someone said, I walk like with my nose in the air, like, I’m better than other people. And I said, but I don’t feel that way. But that’s what that’s what what people think when they see you. I said, well, that’s on them. Yeah. No. I feel like — — no apology.

Jen Hardy [00:19:57]:

No. You have confidence. And then some people are so that that’s hard for some people to deal with, I you know, is that you’re a very confident woman. But I think that’s a great thing.

Beverly Williams [00:20:08]:

You can’t and and, you know, I don’t have biological children. But as a parent, I would think it would be very troubling to realize that you cannot, in still self confidence and self esteem in your children. That somehow they have to acquire it or be born with it? I I don’t know because you can’t give it to them. What do you do?

Jen Hardy [00:20:36]:

Oh my goodness. I could tell you. Well, with 7 kids, I do have a couple of them that were when they were young, they just didn’t have any self confidence. and it is. It’s painful to watch. It is. And I think, you know, the sad thing about being a parent is you can’t give it, but you certainly can take it away. I’ve seen parents completely ruin their child’s self esteem, like, permanently. And it’s it’s the worst thing. But but yeah. It is it’s very hard to watch. And and you know what you can do is just set them up to do the things that they’re successful at. so that they genuinely feel successful. I feel like in this day and age where we’re giving everyone a trophy that is not helping anyone’s actual self esteem at all. But when you you have them do the things that they really are good at, and then they see their they find their own success. I think for for me as a parent, that’s been the best way to do it. Well, you know, that’s important because you should carry that on into

Beverly Williams [00:21:30]:

the workplace. Don’t apply for jobs that you’re not qualified for because you won’t you’ll be you get rejections, but you don’t want to start out in jobs where you won’t be successful because that’s just going to be self defeating, and it’s gonna make you feel badly about yourself. So you wanna you wanna set yourself up for success and not failure. And I don’t think people really understand that. because they want the money. They want the accolades. They want the the attention, but it will come if you take this if you take the right steps in the right order. Now after you reach a certain level, you’re going to hear stuff you may hear stuff like stretch assignment. I’m gonna this is a stretch assignment. This means that you may not be qualified for this job or you may not think that you do well in this job, but we see something in you, and we’re gonna give you this opportunity. I’ve been in situations where one of my bosses said, oh, Beverly’s gonna handle this. Such and such and such. And I’m like, I don’t know how to do that. I didn’t tell him I knew how to do that. But because failure was not an option given my circumstances, I had to figure it out, and you can figure it out. One of the things I I strongly recommend that people do whether they’re looking for a job or not, create a a network, a support network for yourself, of like like and different minded people so that they can be your sounding boards, and you can provide the same service for them. because that will help you move forward. And it has to be people whose opinion you value, who make good decisions and by their conduct will be an attribute to the group and not a detriment. It doesn’t matter how much you like them. If they’re not gonna be helpful, you don’t want them in that group because your career is going to be affected by the feedback you get and the advice that you’re given by those people in that group and by other people.

Jen Hardy [00:24:03]:

Yeah. That’s really good advice. And and you have a podcast about employment. Your employment matters. What made you decide to start the podcast?

Beverly Williams [00:24:11]:

You know, I was in I belong to a women’s lawyers group in a in a a not even the county I live in, I was practicing in that county. I don’t any longer, but I’ve remained a member of the of the group. And We had a meeting, a luncheon meeting. This was before COVID. And one of the members was talking about her podcast, and she said, oh, the the podcast provider is very the the cost is reasonable. Blah blah blah blah. And I said, oh, reasonable cost. You know? because I didn’t have a lot of money. I had gone I was going through my retirement fund. you know, writing the book and and and writing content that I still have that I’m holding on to because I at some point, I’m going to show it to somebody. They’re gonna say, Eureka. This is just what we need. But anyhow, I I moved forward, and things just turned out the way they’re should. I you know, I don’t know what to tell people. I working hard is important. getting out there and being the kind of person that can make a contribution. Because a lot of times, we step we remain in our circles of like minded people. And while that’s comfortable and comforting, you won’t get different perspectives, different points of view, and that narrows what you will be able to do moving forward. What you will be able to do successfully, I think. Not always, but, you know, you wanna yourself in the best position to be successful?

Jen Hardy [00:26:10]:

Well, on that, I think that’s a good time to end. This has been really a really good conversation. I love it. And if if someone has questions about employment. They can listen to your podcast.

Beverly Williams [00:26:21]:

Your employment matters with Beverly Williams. It’s on iTunes, Spotify, Anywhere podcasts are found. My book is your GPS to employment success, how to find and succeed in the right job. And you can go to my website, your employment matters .com. for information about the book and if you maybe easy to access the podcast from my

Jen Hardy [00:26:52]:

my website. But I’ve enjoyed this so much, Jen. Thank you so much. Me too. You’re welcome. And I’ll have links for all that so everyone can can find your things very easily because I think it’s so important. And, Beverly, I’ve enjoyed having you again. Thank you so much for taking the time out of your busy day to talk to us.

Beverly Williams [00:27:09]:

Until next time.

Jen Hardy [00:27:12]:

Beverly Trului inspires me. She really does, and I want to thank you for joining us for our conversation. If you’ve got any questions about employment or breaking through barriers to get where you wanna go, I recommend reaching out to her because That is her specialty. And my specialty is helping women, specifically women over 50. And one of the ways I do that is through Jen’s friends, which is an encouraging email that goes out every single day. It’s just 3 or 4 minutes to women, and it would just let them know that they’re love and cared for and important and fabulous because not everybody hears that every day, and they should. So you can go to jennhardy.net/friends, check it out. Go to jenn hardy.net anyway. There’s all kinds of things up there. There’s a little tab on the top that says opportunities, and you’ll find them all there. And thank you so much for joining me, and you need to stick around because the next episode is gonna EPYC. Awesome. Thank you so much again. Stay tuned, and stay fabulous.

I hope you enjoyed Beverly, and appreciate how hard she worked on shattering the glass ceiling! What I love is that to Beverly, she was just doing what came naturally! She is a rock star!! You can contact Beverly at the places listed above, or send either of us a message HERE, we’d love to hear from you!!