Building a Healthy Marriage and Legacy

Jen Hardy [00:00:10]:

Welcome to the fabulous over 50 podcast where we encourage, inspire, and empower women to find their fabulousness and live the life of their dreams. I’m your host, Jen Hardy. And today, we’re gonna do that by kicking off man month on the fabulous over 50 podcast. What the heck does that mean? Well, I’m gonna interview a different man every week. and they’re all over 50, and they’re all gonna give their perspectives on marriage, aging, their wives in this time of their lives and really offer us some insight. And we’re gonna start with Jerry Dugan. He is a friend of mine, a fellow podcaster, host of the Beyond The Rut Podcast, and if you’ve got other issues that are pretty serious, check that out because he’s got all kinds of stuff going on over there. But what I love about Jerry is that he is unapologetically open and honest and transparent about everything in his life, and he is not afraid to share his emotions and his feelings and exactly how things are going, the good, the bad, the ugly, the hysterical, you’re gonna hear it all. And I guarantee you that whether you’re in a blissfully happily married situation or going through some rough patches, or maybe you’re dating and trying to figure this whole dating after 50 thing out, Jerry is gonna have some incredible insights for you. So That’s why I brought him on, and here he is. Alright, Jerry. Thank you. so much for joining me today. I’m so excited to have this conversation.

Jerry Dugan [00:01:52]:

Same here, Jen.

Jen Hardy [00:01:53]:

This is gonna be fun. So exciting. Yeah. And so Jerry and I are in a group together. And when I we were in this group, I made a very casual comment that got a lot of response that was a lot of women, older women are concerned because there are a lot of husbands trade up. And so some of the men in the group are like, what the heck is that? And, you know, where men who have menopausal, post menopausal wives, will divorce them and marry someone in 2030s and start their families over again. And some of the men were appalled and surprised by my flippant remark about that. And and so Jerry was one of the gracious guys that said, hey, why don’t I come on your show? And let’s talk about healthy marriages, how to keep them healthy so that this does not happen. And so, Jerry, thank you so much for that. And I I just read a post that Jerry wrote that told a little bit about his history and that said that you didn’t have the the example of marriage growing up wasn’t the strongest, but you’ve got a strong marriage you’re self. So I thought maybe we’d start with you telling a little bit about that story.

Jerry Dugan [00:02:59]:

Yeah. so, you know, my parents divorced when I was eleven or up when I was eleven. My brother was like nine years old. And, you know, compared to the rest of the the Dugans, at least the Klan that was over there in California and the Oakland area. My my parents probably had the healthiest relationship or at least that’s what everybody thought. You know, they’re they’re making good money, that my dad had a steady job. He was in the US army, which kinda says a lot about the people in my family. And here they are at 11. I was at eleven years old. they had been married 13 years, and my dad gets orders to go to Germany. while he’s over there getting housing for us and trying to bring us over, some other soldier comes across, my mom and basically just feeds her a bunch of lies. feeds into all of our insecurities that, you know, hey, you know, we should go out and hang out. We we should be friends. you know, it’s okay for us to do this because chances are your husband’s over there in Germany doing the same thing, which was so far from the truth. And, and I know my dad, like, he is so socially awkward. He has zero game. The fact that he married my mom is a miracle. it was almost an arranged marriage because, that that’s a different story. But anyway, yeah, you met my mom when he was stationed in Thailand and, you know, just again, the fact that he he married somebody was the miracle, and so, yeah, again, though, that because my mom fell for this lie, wound up dating this guy, decided she’s gonna stay. My brother and I are gonna go off to Germany, be with my dad, and that just ripped his life apart. I mean, you know, my brother and I are like, yay. We’re liberated. Our strict mom is not around anymore. It’s bachelor pad time and yeah, we found out that my dad was just going through a lot. His whole world basically fell apart or at least his marriage fell apart and it just undid everything he believed about himself. And it, it drove him actually towards trying to commit suicide and right there in front of us. And we did everything we could to keep him from doing that. And at the same time, my brother and I had this fear that if my dad succeeded, we’d have to go live with my mom who is currently staying with a guy who doesn’t like families because he makes a thing out of breaking them up. turns out this wasn’t the first family he broke up. Probably wouldn’t be the last one. And the last thing my brother and I wanted was to go to him and his home and, basically be thrown out was our fear. So We did what we could to keep my dad alive. fortunately, we failed at that, but he failed at committing suicide. So he left wanna believe in a mark on his neck that he couldn’t hide at work. And soon as his boss saw that immediately enacted, a lot of protocols to get my dad this help that he needed, put my brother and I into the foster care for about a month and a half, almost 2 months. so that’s how the summer was spent from 5th grade going into 6th grade. Not your typical summer vacation for many kids, but, for, for us, it was a blessing in disguise too, because that was probably our first glimpse of what a healthy family dynamic looked like. So where my brother and I fought all the time, like, with fists and chokeouts and, you know, just really kicking each other. We’re looking at we’re like living with siblings who talk things out. They go to time they put themselves in time out until they calm down. And then they come together and they talk things through, and we’re like, why do you get so weird? This is not normal. And They ate meals together as a family and nobody was yelling at each other. Nobody got in trouble for anything. They went on vacation together and they enjoyed it. And we just thought this family is so weird. This can’t be real, but we learned over the month and a half to 2 months. This was very real. And we moved back to the states. my dad had to get more help in, Walter Reed. So he got the the rest of the care there before he was released back into the army. And we moved over to California where he needed to be closer to his family. So my uncles, my cousins, my aunts, my grandparents, And he received just that. My dad, he got that support channel that he needed. the the problem was you know, we had 3 other uncles going through divorces at that time and, of course, hurt people hurt people. So those uncles are kinda taking it out on the kids and the family. And you know, you just see, like, 4 men in the throes of depression and taking it out on on my minors. And I just thought, wow, this is this is something, you know, and I had one uncle in particular who would, you know, call me racial slurs left and right. And and it was just, I learned later on that these guys all saw my mom as the enemy. It was her fault that all these marriages fell apart. Like, she started the chain reaction. They got 3 other women in the family say, you know what? My husband is a dirt bag. I’m leaving. And, and so somehow, you know, that the Asian woman in the family was the scapegoat, and therefore, her offspring, not my dad’s offspring where the the butt of their jokes. And and somehow my brother was able to to escape that in a way, but yeah, I was like the brunt of all that, I guess, abuse, psychological abuse, emotional abuse, sometimes physical, you know, fights, And by about age thirteen, fourteen, my dad finally realized what was going on, said I never had to go back there again. And by fourteen, I just something just clicked, you know, for 3 years of my life, it was like, marriages and his family are doomed. all the women would just leave you anyway. you know, life sucks in general. There’s no hope. You know, forget about getting a good job in income. life is just miserable, miserable through and through. And by age fourteen, I I just thought to myself, okay. I know suicide’s not an option for me. I’m not doing that to myself or to anybody. and There’s gotta be more than this, and there’s gotta be. And and I know from the O’Neil family that took us in while we were in Germany, the foster family, I know from their example, there’s gotta be another way. I look up at my friends and I look at their family dynamic and the they’re similar to the O’Neal’s. They they do dinner together. I know this because when it’s time for them to have dinner, they kick me out to go home. I’m like, alright. You gotta go home to your family now. I’m like, I don’t have a family, but, I can’t tell them that. I’m not gonna share that with my friends and just open my heart out, but, you know, deep down inside. I was like, they’re having family meals together. And my friends aren’t sad about it. They’re like, alright. Cool. Thanks. And, like, 2 beds can’t stay. Bye. And off they go. And and I thought, There’s something there. Like, Christmas time goes around. They’re happy. Vacation time. They’re happy. They’re looking forward to it. seeing their parents engage with each other. Like that, that’s something. And so by 14, I realized there is something to strive for. You know, there, it is possible to have marriages like that that my friends have that the O’Neil family had, it’s possible to raise your kids in a way that they want to be there with you. And so that was part of my line in the sand. I I wrote out a vision that I wanna be the first to go to and and graduate from college in this family. I wanted to get married one time and have that marriage last the rest of my life, and hopefully it’s a long, healthy life. so I wanted to rule out the little loophole that maybe my wife kills me and that was the rest of my life. I was fourteen. You know, it kills with a fourteen year old’s dark imagination. and then on top of that, I wanted to raise my kids in a way that they would strive to be better than whatever I accomplished, but it was their desire, their wish. And that they would they would feel safe in their home. Like, I I wrote something essentially like that on Christmas cards, and I gave it out to everybody in my family, Half of the family thought, well, that’s great. I love this. Do this, please. And the other half of the family was like, who do you think you are? Like, you’re better than us. You you don’t like what we’re doing here. what what’s wrong with you? And you’re you’re never gonna amount to anything. I’m like, wow. but I never looked at my future based off what they thought of me. And and and by then, it was already in my head. And and I’m like, this is the direction I’m going. It gives me purpose. It gives me something to strive for. By the time I graduated high school, I got to see even more families and couple dynamics. And, and one girlfriend I had in, in particular, her family was just like, wow. Like, you know, there’s couples in their sixties, and they giggle and they don’t on each other as if they’re still like newlyweds. not the kind of newlyweds that just moved in and realized like the husband’s stores, like they’re so giggly and cute puppy love. And I’m like, how long have you two been together? I’m like, oh, yeah. 35 years. I’m like, what? Yeah. You act like, you just met and you just happy and new. And they’re like, oh, yeah. We always just we look for the best in each other, and we we’re safe around each other. We never do anything to hurt each other. And and if we do, we recover from that very quickly. And I’m like, wow. Okay. And, you know, for a good chunk of our lives, well, hours. I’m I’m now adding my wife in. I just fast forwarded on you about 7, 8 years. by the time I met my wife, I was 25, turns out she had been through something similar. You know, I think she experienced something like 4 divorces while she was growing up. I’d I experienced about 3. And, we didn’t know the stat yet. We learned this later on if we were married, but among married couples, if one of them experienced divorce while growing up, they’re 50% more likely to get divorced than a couple that did not experience divorce growing up. And if you look at a couple where both the husband and wife experienced divorce growing up, they’re a

Jen Hardy [00:12:35]:

187%

Jerry Dugan [00:12:37]:

more likely divorce. than the baseline, the benchmark group. And we learned that later on, like, 4, maybe 5 years into our marriage. We’re like, holy cow. We’re doomed. What is this? and she’s like, it’s a good thing. We promise we’re gonna be married till death do us part. I’m like, you don’t have any poison on you, do you? And she’s like, no. up this week. I’m like, hey. It’s a again, a lot of banter going on. but, you know, we knew before we even got married that we both knew that if we got married, it wasn’t gonna be on a whim. We truly needed to be able to see that the other person was somebody we’re gonna spend the rest of our lives with. And I’m sharing that with her, not telling her, I I was intending and talking about her. And she’s listening to this, and she tells me this later on, that She was a little saddened because she thought I was talking about somebody else. And, you know, I told her, well, it’s funny because when you were talking, I was worried you were talking about somebody else or anybody but me, and and the whole time, you know, we were both like, just head over heels over each other within the 1st week of us dating each other. And, you know, live even she told me later on, not not before we got married, soon as we got married, she told told me, you know, after we started dating, I told my mom that day, I met the man I’m gonna marry. And I was like, oh, wow. Cool. You you didn’t wanna tell me that soon. She’s like, no. I didn’t want you to think. I was crazy. And she’s like, why didn’t you know you wanted to marry me? I’m like, before I dated you, but I’m not gonna tell you that as my opening line. and it was just because, and, you know, one thing that she and I do share with folks is that, you know, she was 3 months pregnant when I met her. And so she was closer about 5 or 6 months pregnant when we started dating. So I knew that if I were to date her, like, this wasn’t just gonna be, you know, like, you know, a week, a fling, like, we’re done, like, that was, that was cute and adorable. Like, I, I really wanted to be sure because there was a lot more on the line for her as well as for me. And, And, yeah, just once we started dating, once we started talking to each other, it was like, yeah. I I could see myself with her and, you know, already see us as a family, and and that’s weird. So I’m never gonna tell her that. And, of course, you know, once we got married, we pulled each other everything. But, anyway, all that to say, yeah, even though my own parents had a horrible marriage, well, not horrible. It ended horribly. I would say. and then my uncles, they all had marriages that also ended horribly. it was around it was outside my family where I got to see those healthy relationships. you know, the the the O’Neil family again in Germany. My friends, when I was growing up, the girl I dated towards the end of high school, seeing her family, And it was like, wow, these are external examples. And, I’m gonna I’m gonna do my best to take note of this. And Yeah. It was a it was a big help. And, definitely the thing that gave me hope. Like, this is possible. And I I think the the biggest thing I draw from, you know, or or put into the show beyond the rod is, you know, I want people to see their their examples of people who’ve overcome you know, they’re being stuck in life. And hopefully, people can see that and do that for themselves.

Jen Hardy [00:15:51]:

Yeah. And I think, you know, that’s important. And it’s funny because when when my husband and I met asked me the next day. He said, do you believe in love at first sight? And I said, no. Cause I knew he what he was gonna say. And he went away 2 weeks after we met to his AT, you know, because he was in the guard. And And 6 weeks after we met, he proposed to me. And I had 4 kids, and I never thought I was gonna get married. And 3 months later, we were married. So I think, you know, when you know, And I think when you’ve been through a lot too, and you you’ve really made a plan on how you want things to go. you know. And and we made the same commitment. You know, I mean, everyone says till dust do us part, but I feel like a lot of people don’t really mean it anymore. You know, they’re just like, yeah, that’s the vows. But when you decide, no, it doesn’t matter what we go through. We are going to make this work, and we’re gonna make it work and make a happy family. It think it makes all the difference in the world. Just it’s a it’s a different way of looking at it, even though everyone mounds the same vows. So you know, I think and and, you know, kudos to you. Well, you know, that your wife was pregnant. I know, because I was in circumstances in the past where things were really difficult and you know, it’s it’s not an easy job for someone to step up and do that, you know, and, and it takes a lot. So it says a lot about you. Oh, thanks. But, you know, and And so that that’s a really incredible story. I think, you know, there’s just so much to unpack with all of that. But But I think one of the things is that you learned how to have a good marriage by what you saw. And so I think if someone’s listening, you have the opportunity, because I know a lot of times when kids kids are a little rough or kids have been in trouble or they’ve gone through a lot, a lot of people are like, I’m not having them over. whatever, you know, let them go do their thing. But what they don’t realize is if if a kind family doesn’t have them over, they don’t have a shot. Right? Because they need to see love and they need to see, you know, and, like, when you’re you and your brother were, like, punching each other, your foster family could have been like, ah, you’re out. Right?

Jerry Dugan [00:17:53]:

Yeah.

Jen Hardy [00:17:53]:

But they didn’t. They they’re like, no. You you need this, and we need you. And there’s just a beauty to that. So If you’re listening, I think that’s one thing to get from this is help a kid out in some some fashion because I think that’s so important. And then Let’s say let’s say that’s a woman is listening and she’s thinking, well, you know, my marriage isn’t that secure. I don’t feel like that with my husband. You know, what would be some things, maybe some conversations she can have with him to solidify their marriage a little bit. Do you have any ideas about that?

Jerry Dugan [00:18:28]:

Yeah. because Liv was really good at this. so where I had the intention, I was gonna be married for a long, healthy relationship, for the rest of my life, my long life. my wife, Olivia, she came in with the actual emotional and intelligence needed to pull this off. So I came in with the intention. She also had the intention, but she also came in with the the actual communication tools to make this work. because our first arguments, I was less than mature, lot less. Like, yeah, looking back and like, wow, stupid. How did you put up with that? And she’s like, well, cause I love you. I’m like, well, yeah. I mean, thank you. So, It it starts with her just simply, you know, asking me, hey, Jerry, can we talk? Like, I need you to talk I I need to listen to what I have to say, and and please don’t react. you know, listen to what I’m saying. and and then think about it and then, and then tell me. So, like, she already knows, like, Jerry’s reactionary, and I need to prep him and prime him that I’m gonna say some things that are true for me, and I need him to be able to process that and be able to be supportive of it. And and and really, like, listen, not just say, okay. Whatever you want, honey, because she’ll see right through that for

Jen Hardy [00:19:50]:

1. Right.

Jerry Dugan [00:19:52]:

and, too, like, it comes up again later on. It’s like, we had a conversation about this. He said, okay, honey. I’m like, oh, yeah. We did. and and so that’s ideally the best thing and, you know, like, you know, like, we turn the TV. We don’t do a lot of these now, but, you know, every so often we still do. I mean, There there was an adjustment when we became empty nesters. Like, she looked up and realized, who’s this guy? like me.

Jen Hardy [00:20:17]:

Yeah. There’s a lot of couples going through that a lot.

Jerry Dugan [00:20:21]:

and and so, yeah, so the answer to the original question, it is to truly in in the softest tone, you can you can muster in the deep down inside. You’re like, I’m so frustrated. This guy is so hard headed. and I’m channeling the inner Olivia here that I can. if you calmly present it, invite him into a conversation, and, keep restoring that calm and and let him know that he’s not under attack. I I I don’t know why, but we we tend to think or I tend to think initially, you know, especially in the earlier years of her marriage that anytime she brought something up, it was an attack on me. Like, I’m not doing enough. And now I’ve gotten to the point where it’s like, alright, deep breath. Yeah. What she’s saying is hard. And I need to hear it because we’re in this together. And, I think what helps for Livini is that, what year was this anyway? This was probably, like, 2007 ish. give or take, because I’d just become a Christian at that point. And so we got, introduced something called weekend to remember, which is a Christian based, couples retreat or conference, more of a conference than a retreat. So there’s no, no hokey exercises like breathe together and, you know, ohm or nothing like that. Like, it’s more textbook stories and lecture driven and and you, you know, think it’s you have homework assignments and things like that. But one of the key things that we learned from the this 3 day event was, when you look at, you know, god’s plan for marriage, you’re both on the same side. and always remember that that there’s something outside of your marriage that’s trying to tear you apart. The

Jen Hardy [00:22:04]:

2

Jerry Dugan [00:22:05]:

of you need to be on the same team at all times. you’re gonna have differences The the the trick is to, to remember you’re on the same side, and to get there, to, to work through your issues and get there. And, I think that’s that’s one thing that’s helped Olivia and I is we we remind ourselves. We’re on the same team. It’s it’s just us. And And that’s, you know, really sunk in for Lyft the last few months, where she’s like, yeah, the kids really did move out. And they are living their own lives. How dare they? And I’m like, How dare us? We raise them to be good adults and and let them move out when they said they’re already.

Jen Hardy [00:22:42]:

And that is the one bummer. Right? If you do it right, and you train them right? They do. They leave you, and it’s it’s really hard. I don’t know about for you, but for me, I mean, that’s just been My kids, I mean, they, you know, they were my life, which I think is also a mistake that sometimes we make is that the kids become our focus. And we forget that they’re gonna move out. And then when they do, yeah, who is this guy next to me? Who is this woman? And why are we together? Right? But I think what you said is key. Remembering we’re we’re on the same team. We chose each other for a reason, and no matter what happens, We need to work it out. And I also like that you that you said, you know, try not to react. Right? Just can you just hear me out? and and just reminding the other person. I think I need to be reminded of that too. If my husband comes to me and he’s like, hey. Because I think when someone says, I I don’t care for it when you do this thing. We we tend to just jump, right, and to not we we’re on the same team, though. And and I wanna make you happy. So I do need to keep my mouth shut for 5 minutes and let you have your say. And we have a rational conversation. That’s a really good. That’s a really good thing to do. Yeah.

Jerry Dugan [00:23:51]:

you know, I I get excited when, you know, she and I have, like, our friction, and, you know, she always has to remind me, hey. Can you try sitting down? I’m like, I’m trying. I’m just so much energy. It’s like, I’m fired up. Yeah. It’s not as happy go lucky in the moment. I’m like, okay. And I take a deep breath, and I’m like, okay.

Jen Hardy [00:24:12]:

So, you

Jerry Dugan [00:24:13]:

know, I’m passionate about this thing. And, and, like, I’m now I’m, like, mindful of, like, what do I do with my hands? What is this? And, but I I I, you know, because I don’t want anything that I don’t wanna do anything that might come off as as scary or because I that’s the furthest thing I wanna do. and and her, again, just bringing the calm back in. I I think it’s it’s almost like the cheat code for me in a sense. Like, I’ve got a wife with lots of good, strong, emotional intelligence skills when it comes to us as a couple and and helping me navigate me. And then I turn on it and tell other guys like, alright, this is what you gotta do, man. And it’s like, Well, you know, it helps. I I got a a a wife that really she keeps her cool. And, like, later on, when we resolve things, she’ll She’ll be like, I was so mad at you. I’m like, you nailed that together really well. She’s like, I know because you already jumped there first. I’m like, okay. Fair. Fair enough. So, yeah, just realizing we’re on the same side always. And and, you know, when our kids were like, we’d sent our son off to college. Gosh. That was 4 years ago. Man, we should have been going to a graduation by now. Okay. That’s Asian coming out. Okay. I’m back. I’m back. so, when we dropped our son off for college, though, I felt like we were committing a crime. Like, are we allowed to drop him off 4 hours away from home and not come back and get him, like, ever? And the answer was yes. We don’t have to come back. And it just felt so wrong. I’m like, but he knows we love him. Right? And he’s like, bye guys. Thank you. And, you know, he’s doing the adult thing now. He’s college kid. but, yeah, Olivia and I, we we felt sad. Like, we just abandoned our child on the side of the road, and our daughter who was sixteen at the time was like, you really didn’t abandon him guys. Like, he’s coming home for the holidays. you know, he’s probably gonna bring laundry with him, to to wash. and so it’ll be fine. And then, of course, COVID broke out. So his sophomore year was spent at home. And he he dropped out of school after that. So Olivia at first was like, alright. Cool. We got our son back and, like, but he’s twenty now.

Jen Hardy [00:26:28]:

He’s he

Jerry Dugan [00:26:29]:

should be doing twenty year old things, and and then he decided to move out after that and do his own thing. And then I felt bad again. I’m like, are we kicking him out? Did we did we kick him out? I don’t think we kicked him out. I think he chose on his own. Right? I didn’t tell me how to pay rent or anything. and Olivia was like, that’s so sad. I’m like, but he got a full time job on his own. He found an apartment on his own, it’s it’s a safe place on top of that and let him do his thing. And, you know, that was 2 years ago, and he’s still doing his thing. Now he did move up here. I moved up to Dallas, by the way, in all this. So it was like, my son went to college, 3 months later, I took a job in Dallas right after my daughter pro made me promise that she could finish high school where she was. so that meant an 8 hour commute between Corpus Christi, Texas and Dallas, Texas, which completely goes against everything you know, my wife and I had been about in terms of our family staying together. But the reason why we chose it, couple of different reasons. 1, Lyve felt it was a good step up for me career wise. It was good for our income. we weren’t seeing our son anymore. And, I could tell deep down My wife wanted those last 2 years that our daughter, like, for them to be really close, which kinda broke my heart because My daughter and I are like birds of a feather. You know, like, she’s the teenage girl version of me. Now she’s 20, but she’s the girl version of me. And, like, I have to be the interpreter to Olivia of like, what’s going on through Emma’s mind? Like, well, I’m thinking this. And it turns out I’m spot on and and live is like, How did you know? And I’m like, she is kinda like me, you know, the everything right down to the ADHD that she got diagnosed with that I don’t have. Yeah. So the the other reason why I took the job though was was I was thinking ahead. I was like, you know, Our daughter’s gonna move out pretty soon. And Jess is ours. She’s gonna take off to college too and and really take off and do her own thing. And gotta think beyond that. Like, do we wanna stay in this this smaller town, or do we wanna, like, explore, like, what are our dreams? You know, what is our life as has been a going to look like. And I, I wanna get to a place where we can go and do those things all the time. And, so, yeah, Lyft moved up here, almost 2 years ago. And 2 years ago. Yeah. How how about that? And I was worried that it wasn’t gonna work. We’d have to go back home, but we also just sold the house. it’s like, we have nowhere to go home too. but within a few weeks, if not a few months, she was like, Corpus, Corpus, what? I, you know, we never lived there. This is Dallas’s home now, and she’s just so excited to be up here. And, you know, we’ve got our own things. You know, she she well, I work from home now, so she gets more than enough of me. But, you know, she’s got her hobby. She likes doing some crafting work, and and we got 3 cats now. So she goes, she she likes 2 of the cats. The third one likes me. And, it just us really like having in some weird way, it’s like, we have time to do our own hobbies and be together and for me to work. And it that’s the newest adjustment for us. Like, It’s okay if I go camping for a 3 day weekend. She’s like, yeah. You kidding me. I get to be with the cats without you. I’m like, what does mean? This like, nope. You’re gonna be home and and be safe. And I know you I know you’re safe out there and you know what you’re doing. And, like, we got nothing to do. Like, it we’re on perpetual vacation now till grandkids come and like, oh, yeah. We we got this, like, little window here before that comes around. And and so, we we just wanna that’s, I think, for me, that the big motivation, you know, for me, like, I want this marriage to work. because we we will one day have grandkids along, and I wanna be there. And I wanna be there as a united front, and I wanna be there with the woman I love, and That’s Olivia, and we’ve gone through so much together, and we’re gonna go through so much more. And, yeah, I don’t wanna start over. I don’t wanna yeah. It’s it’s not worth throwing away. You know, there’s nothing out there worth throwing away my family. And, how I got blessed enough to think that way I have no idea. I have none whatsoever, but that’s that’s my thinking.

Jen Hardy [00:30:51]:

Well, that is beautiful. What are some other things that you do to just have fun together?

Jerry Dugan [00:30:55]:

We were we were one of those families that did board games, and and our kids love, and they still talk about it in It’s kinda like how their significant others get initiated into the family. It’s like, alright. Yeah. They they got on 2 or 3 dates. And then the next thing they bring up is like, hey, you wanna meet my parents? We’re gonna play monopoly or life or, whatever it may be. And and it’s kinda like a part of the test. Like, How does that significant other of that person they’re dating hold up to and interact with us as a family playing a a board game But now that we’re empty nesters, I think we’ve doubled the games that we’ve got because a lot of our games are four player and six player games. Well, now we need 2 player games because it’s just us. So there’s a there’s a game shop down in Bishop Parks, just a mile down the road from us. And Man, I I didn’t know there are all these variations of these games. I just we used to get just what you’d find in the toy section at, like, Target or Walmart, but now these game shops, like, these are adventures. And

Jen Hardy [00:31:53]:

— Oh, yeah. —

Jerry Dugan [00:31:54]:

I think we even got nostalgic ones, and we got one of those, choose your own adventure game It’s like deck

Jen Hardy [00:31:59]:

of — I got that for Dave. Yes. I got that for Christmas, and it is so much fun. Yeah.

Jerry Dugan [00:32:04]:

Yeah.

Jen Hardy [00:32:04]:

We actually we renovated our kitchen and I actually did an episode about games just a couple weeks ago, but my whole basis for renovating the kitchen was to bring all the games there. So we have this wall of cabinets, and 1a half of these, like, 9 inch tall or 9 feet tall cabinets, 1a half of them are all games because You love them so much. And now that they’re in the kitchen where we sit, we play them all day every day. Oh, yeah. It’s And it’s I don’t know. Yeah. David and I, but he has that. Choose you’re an adventure game. That’s a good one. And it puts on forever.

Jerry Dugan [00:32:37]:

And the dramatic reading that goes with it, it’s like — Yeah. And then

Jen Hardy [00:32:42]:

And then when you talked to when you were a kid and you read those books.

Jerry Dugan [00:32:45]:

You know? And, of course, on your dialect, let’s let’s put that card back. Let’s go get the one previous, like, So sometimes we cheat a little bit. We’re cheating as a team so that that helps too. Yeah. Here we go. but I think also a a helpful thing for me was well, one live kinda realizing I don’t know when she realized this, but, you know, Jerry is not as strong as he tends to be. And, you know, his his ego is a bit fragile. And, and so she does soften the blow for it. Doesn’t let me off the hook, but you know, delivers the message a little bit more gently than, than she feels. I think I mentioned that earlier where she could be really frustrated but she knows it’s more important to invite me into the conversation. And that’s only half of it. The other half is me, of course, realizing, okay. I feel myself getting defensive here. This is my partner for life. This is my writer die. This is the lady out of the side of me. Yeah. She’s she’s my equal here. She’s on my team, and I I don’t think she’s out to attack me. And if she feels like if it’s feels like that, it’s probably because I’ve done something to to get her frustrated. And and so you know, listen. What’s the worst that can happen when you listen? And, and it winds up not being that bad. And and that’s probably the coolest thing for me is on the other end of that. Like, wow, that was that was cool. I I feel closer to because of that. And, yeah, we

Jen Hardy [00:34:10]:

— That’s that’s also a really good advice because I think as women, we picture our husbands being so emotionally strong and stable and whatever. And and I know it took me until last year with Dave to realize how much he takes would I say to heart? Because sometimes I think men, you’re like, yeah. Sure. Okay. Whatever. you know, with this strong face, but inside, you die a little bit when we’re super mean, but we we sometimes say things because we think that’s the only way to get our point across, but it is not. We can do it much gentler. and I think that’s that’s a really valid point. So thank you, because I I don’t think you’re the only guy like that. I think a lot a lot of men, you know, and and I think a lot of men feel beaten down by their wives because their wives don’t understand that you’re a lot more tender on the inside than we may see because that’s how you are. That’s how men are. Right? You’re supposed to. Especially when you’re military, you gotta soldier up.

Jerry Dugan [00:35:05]:

Oh, yeah. Yeah. I got in trouble so much for smiling too much. And I’m like, but I’m the medic. Like, you want the medic smiling. It’s when I stop smiling that you probably aren’t in trouble. So

Jen Hardy [00:35:15]:

—

Jerry Dugan [00:35:16]:

Yeah. Like, oh, doc stop smiling. what’s wrong with my leg? Nothing. You’re good. You’re good. Sorry. That was dark. I’m so sorry.

Jen Hardy [00:35:25]:

It’s a good point, though.

Jerry Dugan [00:35:26]:

But your husband will understand that document. yeah. Yeah. yeah. It’s like we we’re just as emotional as women are. I don’t think, especially American men have been given the capacity to you know, assess the emotions we’re feeling, like put names to it. and then on top of that, we don’t know how to express it in a calm way. Like, it’s it’s like, alright, I feel frustrated about this where I I feel worried about a thing. All of it just comes out in terms of, I’m frustrated and angry, Hulk Smash, Jerry Smash. And that’s never constructive, but it’s kinda, you know, it’s it’s how we’re raised in a sense. Like, you know, I blur down in frustration, another man blurts out in and then we just kinda hem and haul at each other, and then it subsides. And either we do what the other guy said or do what I said, or we come to some agreement in the middle, but it doesn’t look like it on the outside. But then you pair us up with somebody who’s spent her whole life learning how to talk about emotions, express emotions in a healthy way, talk about relationships and we’re like, are we speaking the same language? What’s what’s going on here? And it’s just it’s it’s 2 different cultures clashing and trying to be one. And that’s part of the adventure, I think. And, I hope my wife feels the same way. I mean, she’s still with me. So, yay. but, you know, part of that adventure is learning, you know, about how she thinks and and to see how it is different than mine and it compliments me and vice versa, I think differently which complements her. And, I think somebody had said that if both of us thought exactly the same way and and, you know, behave the same exact way, One of us is redundant. So, you know, it’s you don’t want that. And and y’all learn to appreciate that that difference, that your partner has.

Jen Hardy [00:37:12]:

I love that. Well, I think we’ll we’re gonna end on that because I think that is beautiful. And I know you’ve got a podcast and a book, and they’re both beyond the red.

Jerry Dugan [00:37:20]:

Yeah. I kept it simple.

Jen Hardy [00:37:22]:

So I love it. So if somebody wants to find you, where can they go to find you?

Jerry Dugan [00:37:26]:

the website beyond the rut.com. And, There you’ll find the podcast, the links for the book, even giving away free audio book, a version of the book. So that’s, beyond the right dot com slash audio book. and, you know, if you don’t like long reads, just put it on double speed, and you’ll hear me as a chipmunk and be done in about an hour.

Jen Hardy [00:37:47]:

I love it. And, you know, and I and I was looking at your podcast. You’ve got some pretty hot topics on that podcast. So if you’re listening, And you’re dealing with some things and you’re in a rut, check out Jerry’s podcast because the he really covers some topics that, especially for couples, are really important. So I, I definitely would advise you to do that. I’ll have the link for that in the show notes and on the website. So, Jerry, again, thank you so much for being here. I appreciate it. —

Jerry Dugan [00:38:13]:

pleasure, Jen. Thank you so much.

Jen Hardy [00:38:17]:

Thank you so much for joining Jerry and I today. This has been such an amazing and insightful conversation for me. I know that even though my marriage is going well, I learned some phenomenal things. and how to talk to my husband and how to make things a little bit more fun at home. And I hope that you did too. And I just wanna thank you for taking the time. It is the most valuable thing you have, and I so appreciate you spending it here with me. I’ve got so many things going on for women over 50. And I would love it if you would go to jennhardy.net You can check it all out, find something that’s great for you, because my goal in life right now is to just make my life an everyone around me’s life more fabulous, more fun, and just enjoy the heck out of it while we can. So thank you again. for tuning in, stay tuned, and stay fabulous.